Subdual Damage?

[Banzai Kamikaze]

I have heard a few requests about adding a house rule to include subdual damage in Star Wars. In official ruling, there is no such thing as subdual damage. The only way to knock out someone would be that the victim fails his save after taking wound damage. My house rule about stun weapons also lets you put a victim into uncounsciousness.

I realise that right now, without a stun weapon, there is no easy way to knock out someone. Do you want a house rule to include subdual damage in Star Wars? Please state your opinion.

For my part, I wouldn't, not only because I'm not a fan of house rules, but also because I never agreed with the whole concept of subdual damage. I agree that in gameplay terms (For D&D), subdual damage is balanced since it's harder to knock out someone than to kill him. However, Star Wars being a bit more realistic with its Vitality point system, I believe that no one can decide: "Ok, I'm going to knock this guy out with a rock !", than go bashing someone on the head until his subdual wound points are depleted. I prefer as it is right now, that if you bash someone with a rock, he takes regular wound points and has a chance to be knocked out if he fails the save. This represents the fact that you may actually kill the guy instead of knock him out with your rock, and the guys does not want to be knocked out, unless he voluntarily fails the save.

The problem with the official ruling, is that if you limit your damage by pulling a blow (see the Did you know... thread) so that you don't kill your victim, you also lower his fort save.

Bottom line of the current system: knocking out someone without a stun weapon is hard and risky, as you may kill your victim.

As I stated earlier, please post your opinions.

[Flax]

I would like to see subdual damage.

Just for the sake of argument, how can you kill someone with a sap ou a whip, unless you hit manytimes?

[Archangel Zero]

Here's the start of an idea: When you want to knock someone out you make an attack roll with a -4 penalty (like pulling a blow) but if you hit you make a strengh check that determines the person's fortitude save. If he fails he's knocked out. If you fail the attack roll by less that 4 he takes damage normally. Exception: if the target has VP remaining he cannot be knocked out.

[Rouroux]

well, say you get behind a guy and you just want to knock him down, and not be seen, you crawl behind him and and hit him hard with the handle of your blaster. you hit the guy, he never saw you coming...

but because he still have vitality points he cannot be knocked down...?

[Archangel Zero]

There's a rule for that kind of situation that bypasses the VP anyway, I think.

[Banzai Kamikaze]

Think of heroic characters havin a "6th sense". If you fire a heroic character by surprise, he will do a kung-fu matrix move to dodge the hit.

Also, being hit in vitality does not always mean you are not physically touched. If there is absolutely no way some one could dodge damage (like a wall falling on a heroic character), he still takes damage in vitality points, like if he was only bruised or not hit in critical parts.

I like your idea, ArchangelZero, but I think it's a bit complicated to rule out, and it is a bit too easy to knock someone out with this rule. This was the house rule I would have proposed:

---->If you want to knock someone out, you must use a "club like" weapon, or your hands, and deal subdual damage. You take a -4 penalty on your attack roll. The victim is knocked out when the subdual damage is higher than his total wound point count. You cannot knock out someone who still has vitality points.

And to answer Flax, why couldn't you kill someone with a sap? In real life, a good sap hit in the head could easily kill someone. Even if you don't want to kill your victim, you might accidently do so, and that's what the actual rules are trying to show.

I still did not get a clear answer, except from Flax, do you want subdual damage or not?

[Flax]

Your house rule is the rule appied in D&D ( I think) and it works well enought, so I think thats the way we should handle subdual damage.